Episode 057 - Are People Feeling Lonely in the Workplace?

Dr Austin Tay (00:01)

Hi there, welcome to PsychChat. I'm your host, Dr. Austin Tay. Today, I'm very delighted to have Dr. Hodar Lam, research assistant professor of work and organizational psychology with Lingnan University of Hong Kong, and also the chair of the division of industrial organizational psychology of the Hong Kong Psychological Society. Hi there, Hodar.

Hodar Lam (00:26)
Hi Austin, thank you so much for inviting me. It's my pleasure to be here. Yeah, I feel that we should have done this like a lot earlier, but it is happening now. Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (00:30)
Well, it's my pleasure to have you as one of my guests.

Yes, it is happening now which is good and as I said I'm very delighted to have you because I know you have done a very specific research which I think it is very niche topic at the present moment. So I was just looking at your LinkedIn profile. Now you call yourself Dr. Lonely Ship. Now why is this the case?

Hodar Lam (00:49)
very niche topic. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think I could break this question down into two parts. So one is how did I got interested in the topic of loneliness in leadership context? And another part is why I would like name it this way. Maybe I'll start with the second question. I think generally my view, of course, is based on my research in so generally my research areas in the leadership field. So my take on leadership is actually my focus is
or at least to me what distinguished leadership from like management or being a manager is the relationship part. So leadership I would say and of course I'm happy to provide the references and so on but it's not about only about the person but it's about the social influence process so you need a healthy relationship for leadership to happen and the you know it may sound like a paradox or
dilemma in the first place but when you think about loneliness and relationship they are like two sides of the same coin right so we we are unhappy or we feel disconnected in our social interactions and that's why you feel lonely and that's why i thought like at least from a theoretical perspective like these two things are same size of the coin but why don't we just connect them you know speaking of connectedness so this is why like i ⁓ well i create well

I thought about the term like lonely ship and that's the title of my doctoral thesis and then I just took it as my label or one of my identity as a researcher. ⁓ And then for, you know, why I would be interested in the topic, like besides all of my lonely experiences in life, which I still experience, you know, on a daily basis, but we can talk about that later on. But I was really inspired ⁓ when I think about when I searching for like
my research topic for my doctoral thesis. I was recalling my observations of work experiences and I thought about my first manager or first leader when I first joined the workforce as a full-time HR manager. So I would say that he's by muse in that sense. So ⁓ we have a habit of having almost a daily meeting of at least an hour, but in which we will only spend like five to ten minutes to talk about work but in the remaining time it's more about like me because I have a bit of a counseling background ⁓

Dr Austin Tay (03:34)
Mm-hmm.

Hodar Lam (03:39)

maybe, maybe that's relevant, or maybe he just needed someone to talk, but we spent the rest of the meeting, like me listening to him talking about his struggles, first more about the struggles at work, because we were facing a situation of really manpower shortage. So basically, he and I were covering the job responsibilities of his supposed to lead manager roles. So we were over, like we were short of manpower. But then later on, he also started talking about his, you know, home situations, like he has fights with his daughters and so on. ⁓ And then I already got the impression that I don't know if friends friendship is a strong word to define our relationship at the time, but I really felt that he must be in a really lonely place. And ⁓ because when I was when I decided to quit my full time job to become an IELTS psychologist, I was really hoping that I could create some

Dr Austin Tay (04:12)
Mm-hmm.

Hodar Lam (04:39)
impacts in employee well-being issues. And when we think about employee well-being issues, of course, there are physiological or other psychological factors, but also the social well-being or the social interactions, the quality of social interactions is also an important determinants of whether people are healthy physically and mentally. And I have the whole world health organization supporting this definition.

So this is why I think loneliness is actually quite an important yet under overlooked antecedents to a lot of well-being issues, at least in the work or employee context. So sounds like a bit of a long story, but that's how I got into the topic. Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (05:28)
Yeah, wow, fantastic. mean, I was just listening to what you were saying, having that name, Lonely, you know, Dr. Lonelyship, it's like you're now become the person who is actually navigating the ship, you know, in organization context, helping people to uncover what loneliness is and to be aware of it and at the same time to be open to talk about it.

Hodar Lam (05:35)
ship. ⁓

Yeah, I hope so.

Dr Austin Tay (05:53)
your ⁓ experience with your previous job, your manager, when as psychologists ourselves, sometimes we do fall into that space of being a listener and then providing that kind of advice as we often do. So with that, you you said this is how you kind of started doing the research. obviously, as you say, it is very connected to an individual's well-being. Now, you mentioned the word ⁓

Hodar Lam (06:05)
Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (06:23)
how loneliness is also connected with the social relationships that we have. Do you think in your research yourself, have uncovered, ⁓ the thing that comes to my mind is about ⁓ leadership ⁓ member exchange theory, whereby, you know, we want to have good leaders, but at same time, we also want to good team members. And if leaders themselves are feeling very lonely, how then can they be good leaders?

Hodar Lam (06:26)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Dr Austin Tay (06:52)
Is that something that you were uncovering in your research?

Hodar Lam (06:55)
⁓ I would break ⁓ your question down again in two parts. First is my take on my approach. And then the second is about some potential impacts or effects of, or I wouldn't call it effects, correlations, like ⁓ observations that we see among lonely leaders. So first of all, generally for my research, I primarily focus on the ⁓ specific yet

I would say it's actually a large group of leaders which would be mid-level managers. ⁓ So, and that's, I think that's important to start the conversation because I think the whole top leaders, being a CEO is so different from being a mid-level manager. So I would say I would start the whole conversation like talking about the costs or antecedents outcomes at the mid-level context, partly because ⁓ I think there's a

wait it's been more than 26 almost 30 years ago some scholars compare the mid-level management context as like a bit of a sponge but not to absorb like water in the organization but to absorb the emotional emotional energies let's put it that way in a more neutral way in organizations so there are commands or know requirements demands from the top level but then they they need to filter they cannot like directly you know just

pass all the emotional energy to their team members. But at the same time, like subordinates or team members, they could also have their frustration, disappointment, or maybe happiness sometimes. But then not all of these emotional, let's say, energy could be passed on or up the organizational hierarchy. So I think that's often the struggle of the mid-level management. And I've done quite some interviews

in the Netherlands, when mid-level managers or leaders talk about loneliness, often the struggle is that they cannot tell others everything. So, in psychology or in psycho-psychology, we would talk about the phenomenon of self-disclosure. So it's not only about sharing, but the inability or ⁓ self-disclosure is the sharing of personal sensitive information, including how you feel, especially when it comes to like worries, anxiety, disappointment,

Dr Austin Tay (09:04)
Yes.

Hmm.

Hodar Lam (09:25)
and so on. So I would say the proximal finding of what drives mid-level managers or leaders to feel lonely is the inability to self-disclose. So one of my latest stage projects I hope is published soon ⁓ is that we look at self-disclosure both ⁓ upwards and downwards. So self-disclosure to your superiors and disclosure to followers. So I first assume or you know

Dr Austin Tay (09:48)
Mm.

Hodar Lam (09:55)
predicted or proposed that, you know, maybe it's the inability to disclose to followers that create the problems. But it's actually the inability to disclose upwards that ⁓ more likely drives loneliness among leaders or mid-level leaders. So it turns out, it seems that how we interpret the finding is that being able to disclose upwards is a signal or ⁓ is an affirmation that you get supported by your seniors, though they are not always there, especially nowadays, there are so many global teams that there are leaders who don't even see their managers in person, Whereas for the disclosure to followers, could be seen some leaders may see that as a routine or part of the jobs, let's put it that way, to initiate the whole relationship building process. So it's more like a routine rather than playing the symbolic role of a creative

Dr Austin Tay (10:36)
Yes.

Mm.

Mm.

Hodar Lam (10:55)
meaning in having a sense of social connections that matters more than just having the quantity or the number of relations with followers. So that would be the proximal antecedent that we found. And then when it comes to what are the impacts or why organizations just care about ⁓ loneliness for leaders, we found that lonely leaders are more likely to have trouble sleeping. ⁓ it's also, of course,

the whole loneliness and sleep relationship is more complicated than that. But let's say there's a, there there's, could be a vicious cycle. But they also have more trouble in controlling their self, controlling their impulses, as well as more likely to report feeling emotionally exhausted. So which is a key dimension of ⁓ burnout risk. So these are ⁓ the major findings from my side. And of course, there are also some other scholars that ⁓ research has

Dr Austin Tay (11:30)
of course, yeah.

Mm.

Hodar Lam (11:54)
has shown that loneliness at work impairs your work performance. Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (12:00)
So from

your research yourself, just now you mentioned you did it predominantly in the Netherlands and now you're based in Asia. Do you see a parallel within your research to the organizations that you come across in Asia?

Hodar Lam (12:03)
Mm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

So one, ⁓ so I haven't mentioned that yet, but ⁓ besides looking at self-disclosure and other key drivers that I look at what would help or not help with preventing loneliness for leaders is the sense of power. And I think this is when I mean, there's still a lot of research in progress, but ⁓ this is when the cultural lens or the cultural differences could come in. So here I'm talking about subjective or sense of power and ⁓

It is shaped by whether like regardless of culture, whether the leader feel that they are, they have legitimate power in the role. And often in mid-level management, you are already there, but you don't really feel you have that much like control or decision-making, ⁓ discretion or power and so on. And this is why, ⁓ lot of mid-level managers, even though they're objectively, are at that powerful positions, but they don't feel as powerful like subjectively or having a sense of power.

Dr Austin Tay (12:56)
Mm.

Hodar Lam (13:18)
that triggers ⁓ loneliness among themselves. But also when you talk about the cultural lens, I think ⁓ there's quite some strong cultural differences when it comes to how individuals think about their sense of power. So one project that I actually just submitted last week or a few days ago ⁓ is that very briefly we found that in cultures with a horizontal individualistic values,

meaning that these are the cultures that appreciate equality but also independence. In these cultures, in that sense, so power is a way for humans to differentiate from each other, right? So this person is at a more powerful and I'm less powerful and so on. In cultures where like equality is a norm, power is not as appreciated. So in that sense, we found that generally having a sense of

Dr Austin Tay (13:52)
Mm-hmm.

Hodar Lam (14:17)
power could protect you from feeling lonely because it motivates you to satisfy your social needs more immediately, for example, through self-disclosure or networking. But in cultures with horizontal individualism, such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Scandinavian countries, I think probably Australia as well, ⁓ that power is not as appreciated in very equality-focused social norms. So in that sense, the social benefits

or the protective function of power is more limited ⁓ in preventing loneliness. So this is what I just submitted like a week ago. Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (14:53)
Mm.

Right, well thanks for sharing that. we're definitely looking forward to that paper and do share with us when it's out. Yeah, I mean you mentioned about the social lens. I've been in Asia for so many, years. ⁓ Personally lived in Hong Kong. And I know one of the things in Asia is all about the ⁓ perspective, what people think about you. So face value. And you mentioned earlier on being a mid-level manager is often very difficult to...

Hodar Lam (15:00)
I hope so, Is there? Yeah, I hope so, yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (15:26)
⁓ manage up to talk about it and also talk about their feelings ⁓ to their team members because in their mind is a sign of weakness not being able and equates to what you were saying about power. Power equates to faith. know, if I do that, I'm losing faith. How would my manager think of me if I share with my manager about the way I feel? And likewise, if I share with my team members, how would they view me?

Hodar Lam (15:26)
Yeah

Mm.

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (15:53)
So do you think that could be an additional level, especially for mid managers in Asia, not only in Hong Kong, I think, predominantly in Asian culture, face is so important to us. So do you think that is a concern or something that we need to be looking out for when we're dealing with mid level managers in Asia?

Hodar Lam (15:58)
Yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Yes, totally. think, ⁓ first of all, regardless of our cultural differences, generally loneliness is still a stigmatized emotions. often individuals attach like when, you know, even the ⁓ decision to admit that I feel lonely ⁓ could trigger some shame or guilt or, you know, concerns about others evaluation. perhaps the problem is not on loneliness as an experience.

I'm all for, you know, accepting emotions regardless of whether they are positive or negative. The problem is more that whether you are able to express ⁓ the emotions and in this sense, the face concern could inhibit an authentic expression of your feelings, which could hinder, for example, like whether you find useful social resources to cope, but also like how you internally ⁓ could build up a pattern of suppressing emotions, not only loneliness itself, ⁓ like when a person or maybe in I could give you some examples here. For example, I've spoken to managers when they talk about what loneliness means to them, ⁓ they will feel, for example, like angry, which is another emotion I wasn't thinking about as a green researcher. But they explain that like, because they feel they have invested so much in, for
example,

Dr Austin Tay (17:45)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (17:45)
like buying their team's lunch or dinners or drinks, ⁓ or, you know, trying to give them like individual considerations. But when it comes to lunch hours, no one asked me for lunch, or, you know, when I'm sick, no one sends me this, I don't know, flowers or cards and so on. So the investment is not reciprocated. And then for some people who really, ⁓ who are really concerned about like the exchange, or you mentioned like leader member exchange, right? ⁓ Or also like reciprocity that they may feel disappointed and angry.

Dr Austin Tay (18:09)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (18:15)
right? So, feeling lonely itself ⁓ could be, ⁓ we would say, like comorbid or, you know, ⁓ it's not only about feeling lonely, but you could have other negative emotions involved and building a pattern of suppressing emotions ⁓ could, well, long story short, could be, it could wear you off and is supported by a lot of emotions research. So in that sense, I think so. ⁓ Another thing that I want to bring up is that

Dr Austin Tay (18:37)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (18:45)
I would say that female leaders would be even more at risk, potentially in cultures where expression of emotions is more difficult. Because in leadership context, research has shown that for male leaders, like team members or, you know, the society would judge or evaluate whether they are competent or not or capable. But for female leaders, we have double standards in the sense that we expect them to be

Dr Austin Tay (19:09)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (19:15)
competent and agentic, but at the same time, we also expect them to be women in the sense that they also need to be warm and communal, caring. So, in that sense, like there's an extra job demand, if we call it that way, for female leaders and, loneliness could be could be triggered, you know, by having, you know, ⁓ double the standards in being judged or evaluated, which going back to how I see leadership as a relationship, relationship also

Dr Austin Tay (19:28)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (19:44)
involves a lot of like judgment, evaluations, perceptions. So I would say, yeah, female leaders could be even more at risk.

Dr Austin Tay (19:53)
Yeah, I mean, in most of these situations we talk about in work, women leaders are usually disadvantaged because they have, as you say, double standards that they have to prove themselves. And at the same time, they have to present themselves to be warm and fuzzy, ⁓ emotional than male leaders, which is a sad thing. However, we were talking about culture there earlier on. ⁓ I was just wondering, with this present time,

Hodar Lam (20:01)
Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (20:22)
economic climate, a lot of us, a lot of people are working for international organizations. Should the whole culture lens be relevant when we talk about ⁓ loneliness? Because as you mentioned earlier on, countries where they are more into not having people in power, about equality, which kind of a kind of extension of their culture within international firms and they establish themselves in Asia, do you see there is going to be a change in terms of how maybe Asian employees working for international firms will adopt that kind of mentality and dealing with loneliness a bit better than perhaps comparing with a local firm in Hong Kong whereby it is still taboo to talk about feelings or emotion in general?

Hodar Lam (21:15)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, so I think that's a very good question, but also it's a complicated question. if we are only, I mean, we have limited time, but if we only like zoom into preventing loneliness by creating like more meaningful connections, which is more important than having a lot of social ties, I would say as a trend for a healthy team or a healthy organization, more important to reduce the salience of cultural differences and that's generally how you know multinationals should be managing, not should be but like researchers show, to manage like cultural diversity is to not make it a thing and it speaks to not only like cultural differences like it could be like gender difference or you know sexual minority or other stigmatized stigmatization happening at work. One way to manage issues

Dr Austin Tay (22:05)
Mmm.

Hodar Lam (22:17)
stemming from social identity differences is to not make that identity salient. So one very practical approach as I'm doing my best to promote it in Hong Kong like through media interviews and so on is that there's a common misconception that especially for new leaders, they would think that when I start coming to the team, ⁓ should immediately do a lot of relationship oriented investment like organizing social activities, social gatherings and then, you know, opening up about my personal life, showing like these are my family photos and so on. But actually that would even make the cultural, like if we only focusing on the cultural differences, it would make the cultural identity even more salient and people will start to more easily spot the differences and see you, less likely see you as an in-group member. And a more proactive approach is to actually focus on tasks and focus on

Dr Austin Tay (23:08)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (23:17)
on creating like common goals or common achievements that you then you can more smoothly or more quickly develop a sense of like team identity that we are a team together and then our let's say demographic differences is less important or does not come in in segregating or creating subgroups. So yeah, so this is my first take on your question and then you

Dr Austin Tay (23:41)
Mm.

Hodar Lam (23:47)
also talk about local firms that, you know, is taboo to talk about feelings. think this would touch upon the question of how the organization ⁓ as a whole, as a culture value human capital, or whether they want to develop a sustainable pool of talents in the organization. and very practically,

Dr Austin Tay (24:08)
Hmm

Hodar Lam (24:17)
are companies who really just want people, the most competent people come in, get some projects done, and then we move on to another group of talents. Maybe, for example, in tech sectors or industries, the technology is evolving so quickly that they need to prioritize recruiting the youngest or the most updated pool of talents. So I think that's fine. That could be ⁓ a strategic⁓ decision as a firm or as an organization, but if the organization wants to, ⁓ you know, wants to have a group of like ⁓ strongly identifying or committed team members or you know employees regardless of whether they are leaders or not because at some point this sustainable workforce would mean that even the junior employees at some point would become leaders within the organization right ⁓ then I would say it's probably more I would suggest a more top-down approach in thinking about how your organization how you craft your organizations like culture and values

Dr Austin Tay (25:13)
Yes, yes.

Hodar Lam (25:27)
so that you retain the talents and then they would in not only in terms of like this business strategy but also how you treat people or how the emotional climate how it feels to work here ⁓ to overcome potentially loneliness but also it's related like issues yeah

Dr Austin Tay (25:49)
You started mentioning about a couple of tips for organization, the climate, creating a conducive working environment, because as you said, younger people joining the workforce, they will eventually become leaders. So this is the responsibility of organization to create that space to combat the issue of loneliness. Are there any more tips that are practical for organizations to act upon now so that they could actually

Hodar Lam (25:56)
Hmm.

Hmm

Dr Austin Tay (26:19)
push loneliness away from their workforce.

Hodar Lam (26:24)
Let me think. think first of all, ⁓ so what I'm trying to ⁓ mention, one of the issues is what I was trying to illustrate at least in the mid-level management context is the inability to engage in self-disclosure. And of course, self-disclosure, a key drivers for self-disclosure is to have trust. so ⁓ in that sense, it's a multi-level issue. So it's not only about organization creating certain culture, but also how people develop trust and especially in Asian cultures ⁓ a lot of decisions are made based on trust instead of you know other factors so you need to have developed that sense of trust not only in between two people but also as a team as an organization ⁓ so what organization can do at the very least is to ensure that there's a fairness or justice climate

Dr Austin Tay (26:58)
You

Trust.

Mm-mm.

Hodar Lam (27:24)
in terms of having fair procedures, ensuring that there are fair or just interactions and so on, and how resources are distributed. ⁓ And then another recommendation is to really think about what I mentioned earlier about finding the sense of power for leaders, because what really emerges as an issue is that a lot of people are promoted, especially nowadays, let's say in Hong Kong,

Dr Austin Tay (27:53)
Mm-hmm.

Hodar Lam (27:54)
⁓

I don't know if it's the best word, but it's a bit of a talent fault line. I just created the term on my own. on one hand, it's good that a lot of younger people get more opportunities to be promoted to leadership roles. But on the other hand, ⁓ they may be very competent in their job content area, but being a leader is another ⁓ question, right? Or another challenge. So how organizations

Dr Austin Tay (28:02)
Ha ha.

Yes?

Yeah, yes.

Hodar Lam (28:24)
prepare or ⁓ help address this talent fault line issue. For example, like really thinking about leadership development programs, not in terms of ⁓ skills, but really ⁓ addressing that there's also being a leader also has an emotional or ⁓ mental health aspects. ⁓ And at the same time, also like ensuring that they really earn their power positions in a legitimate way. Because

Dr Austin Tay (28:32)
Mm.

Hodar Lam (28:54)
again from the interviews I've done, lot of young leaders or junior leaders, their loneliness stems from feeling that they don't have legitimacy in their positions. for example, and I also experienced that when I was working. So I remember I had a subordinate who was a clerical staff ⁓ and she's probably 20 to 30 years older than me. So in reality, she could already be a parent of mine. ⁓

Dr Austin Tay (29:06)
Mm.

Hodar Lam (29:24)
When it comes to writing her performance appraisal report, I felt so uncomfortable. I was only in my early twenties. And I was like, well, who am I to judge her performance? Right? ⁓ I mean, some, there may be like different examples of like self-doubts, but I wouldn't say it's all about the person's like ⁓ inefficacy or, you know, not being confident, but it's also like how the position makes you feel that you are comfortable to exercise your control.

Dr Austin Tay (29:29)
Yes.

Hodar Lam (29:53)
exercise your power and I think that's something is about how the job or the role is designed that gives you the comfortable or legitimate power to do what you are expected to do as a leader and honestly I think it's a bit of an issue in many cultures including Hong Kong but not limited to yeah

Dr Austin Tay (29:55)
Mm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I do see your point about having that support element of leaders as they are going into leadership program. Often we see leadership programs all about getting the right stuff done properly, ⁓ have the social skills to how to do and lead your team members. But we don't really focus on the individual being a leader, their needs and also their emotional capacity to deal with all this.

Hodar Lam (30:38)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (30:45)
⁓ responsibility. Some

responsibility are not very clearly delineated as we know in job description. Some are added ⁓ responsibility in itself can be a burden for the individual while they are trying to manage everything else, a team and then also their direct manager. So that is fantastic to let organizations know there are more to it than just actually providing an opportunity for a leader.

Hodar Lam (30:51)
Yeah.

Mm.

Dr Austin Tay (31:14)
On the other hand, what would be your tips for individuals who are now experiencing perhaps loneliness in the workplace?

Hodar Lam (31:19)
⁓

I think immediately first, of course, I hope like lonely individuals find safe and appropriate targets for self-disclosure. it seems from my finding that being able to disclose to someone who is like in a more powerful or more senior positions than yours is even more helpful in protecting you from feeling lonely. But other ⁓

I would say, ⁓ but back to loneliness itself as a phenomenon, there are different aspects of it. So first is to, I think the first is to understand or appreciate that loneliness, I mean, not only loneliness, but all negative emotions have a function. So in that sense, I subscribe or I believe in the whole evolutionary theory or evolutionary psychology theory or approach to

to emotions is that humans, our ancestors pass on through the genes with these negative emotions for a reason, because they help us survive. Because if they are unhelpful, then they should have been eliminated as our humankind developed or evolved over time. it could be loneliness, it could be other types of negative emotions, but they serve a certain purpose. But we are so used to rejecting

⁓ negative emotions because it's unpleasant for sure.

Dr Austin Tay (32:52)
Yes.

Hodar Lam (32:53)
But we don't really get a lot of opportunities to reflect on what these negative emotions mean to us. So loneliness immediately, would say, is actually our mind. Because I would say mind, because it's not only our brain, but also there's our body also react to that. But that's another question. But loneliness is a signal from our body or from our mind reminding us that we need social connections. But also there could be a threat in our social

Dr Austin Tay (33:00)
Mm.

Hodar Lam (33:23)
social network or interactions and they could speak to two different things, right? So the reminder to reconnect is more about like reminding you to approach something, like maybe you need to reach out to someone. ⁓ But when it's a signal to remind you that there are social threats, like maybe there are people at work who are isolating you or even like making gossips or creating like scandals or rumors and so on, then that avoidance

instinct

is indeed helpful so that you have a more careful assessment of your social environment at work. So again, it could get that I could talk about this like forever, but first, I think about what the ⁓ emotions are trying to communicate with us. I think that's ⁓ tip. And then the second tip is ⁓ I would say it's

Dr Austin Tay (34:11)
Yeah.

Hodar Lam (34:21)
I actually think it's a very interesting finding. ⁓ It may sound a bit weird at first, but ⁓ somehow there are objects or tangible items when they could remind you of a sense of connectedness that could immediately or more temporarily relieve your loneliness. So some examples from previous recent research is drinking chicken soup. ⁓ So I tried to introduce some fun or interesting findings here.

Dr Austin Tay (34:47)
⁓ Okay.

Hodar Lam (34:51)
so that we don't lose our audience here. But our research has shown if you consume chicken soup, revives or relives your early child experience of being tempered, being cared for. So that's a temporary relief of loneliness. And then another thing is to ⁓ engage in activities that is fitting with your personality. So one finding is that

Dr Austin Tay (35:04)
Uh-uh.

Being nurtured, yeah.

Hodar Lam (35:21)
⁓ introverts, so I'm one of them, so that's why I remember this finding, introverts would get a relief of loneliness only by buying a book. yeah, so that's, ⁓ of course, like, we could reflect on how true or how strong this effect is, but there are some findings supporting that. But also, there are, I've also seen research showing that like putting photos of your family or your loved ones on the desk, ⁓ you know, having some tangible items

even they only play symbolic meanings but as long as they could remind you of a sense of social connectedness that's a relief a temporary relief for loneliness as well.

Dr Austin Tay (35:57)
Mm.

Oh,

I like that. Take perspective of the situation that you're in, that sense of loneliness, but then find something that could connect you with a loved one to remind you to have that temporary offset of that loneliness feeling. And obviously, I love the third one that you talking about, chicken soup. You if all fails, chicken soup will nurture you and give you a sense of comfort. Of course, it has good properties, drinking chicken soup, especially if you're sick.

Hodar Lam (36:19)
Yeah.

Mm, mm,

mm. Yeah.

Dr Austin Tay (36:31)
That is fantastic. Thank you for sharing those tips. I just want to say it has been fantastic talking to you and loneliness in the workplace is something that all of us go through. It's how we look at it and how we choose to manage it in our own different ways. While we cannot control some of the antecedents that's within the organizational environment as an individual, we can obviously do something about it. Before I go...and say thank you very much and end this whole podcast. Are there any more tips from your side that you would like to share with our listeners?

Hodar Lam (37:07)
you

Not at the moment, but ⁓ I would say overall the message or my motivation to keep working on research on this ⁓ line of this research program is that I think it's also a moral statement to raise to public organizations that leaders are only human. And I think we, I wouldn't say all of us, but many of us easily fall into four pre-

to the whole idea to be positive and being cheerful, happy all the time. And that's also quite some people would expect from a leader. this kind of overly positive attitude could sometimes blatantly or implicitly reject that any negativity, at least in organizational life, is also normal. And that could be the starting point of the problem.

Dr Austin Tay (38:04)
Yeah. ⁓

Hodar Lam (38:08)
So when we let you know as more and more organizations recognize the need for you know wellness or well-being, mental health, but also sustainable workforce, I think one major change is to recognize that at least in leadership context leaders are only human and therefore

Yeah, so don't see them as a token to generate happiness, but they are also human and they have their emotional and wellbeing needs as well.

Dr Austin Tay (38:42)
Yeah. Well, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us in this podcast. And ⁓ I know our listeners will be getting a lot of tips on it. And ⁓ if you are okay with it, would it be ⁓ all right for us to share your research to our listeners? And we'll put that in our show notes. All right.

Hodar Lam (38:57)
Cool. Yes, definitely. And I'll also share the chicken soup study. yeah, so, so, so, I don't know if it works for vegetarian, like if it's a vegetarian soup, but maybe like we need more research on that. But yeah, I'll share that. Thank you so much, Max Ean. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Bye bye.

Dr Austin Tay (39:03)
Yes, please do.

Yes, yeah. All right then, thank you very much, Hoda, for talking to us today. Thank you. Thank you, bye-bye.